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Guest4306
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 Posted - 01/13/2012 : 22:17:59
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Ottawa defenseman Erik Karlsson is quietly having a Norris kind of season.
The 21-year-old is leading the NHL in points for defensemen, with almost a point a game. (Currently he has 43 points in 44 games.)
He currently leads the entire league in most even strength minutes played. To restate the point, there is not one NHL player who has been on the ice for more even strength minutes than Erik Karlsson!
He has his share of power-play points, but he shines while playing even strength. 25 of his 43 points are on 5-on-5, and while his team currently sits at -1, his plus/minus rating is +8!
He's a big reason for Ottawa's success this season, which at the "half pole," has them sitting in 5th place in the Eastern Conference.
If you asked most hockey fans to name the top defensemen in the NHL, I speculate that his name would get nary a mention!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2012 : 09:46:58
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one thing that Karlsson does not do, that other top defensemen do a lot of, is PK. While PP is gravy for points and even strength capabilities are good, I think the true measure of a defenseman's "defensive" capability is how much time they get on the PK. Karlsson currently gets about 45s per game, which ranks dead last on the team.
When you look at other top ranked defensemen and perennial Norris candidates, you will see that they play in all situations, and in many cases are near the top of their team's respective PK minutes. It will work against Karlsson. |
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Guest9306
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Posted - 01/14/2012 : 17:11:14
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| I have Karlsson in my pool, and i wouldnt wanna have any other dman. |
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Guest9145
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Posted - 01/14/2012 : 22:57:02
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| Nuxfan makes a good point. I'm a Sens fan till the end and love Karlsson, but a defencemen who doesn't get put on the PK, his chances of winning the Norris could look quite slim. I predict he'll finish just outside the finalists. It's what happened to visnovsky last year. He had a ridiculous total of 68 points including 18 goals, but his offensive prowess often left him out of position when the puck came to anaheim's end. He wasn't played on the PK which hurt him a lot during Norris voting. He finished fourth there. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2012 : 12:59:35
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To the point on Karlsson not playing the pk - I think he will eventually, just not yet. It's his youth and experience working against him, and I think it's a solid coaching move to help him concentrate on one facet of his game at a time.
The kid has serious game. Awesome young player, and yes, I AM jealous he's not on the Leafs. Will be a top d-man for some time, in my opinion.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9103
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Posted - 01/16/2012 : 05:17:11
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Erik Karlsson can and has played PK, particularly under Clouston... He's just already playing 25-30 minutes per game already. If you put him out for the PK too, that climbs even higher, which is taxing on any defenceman in the NHL.
MacLean's just being smart and utilizing him where he can best help the team since defense on the PK doesn't utilize his great skating or breakout pass nearly as much as PP or 5on5 does. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2012 : 07:19:13
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I like Karlsson and I think he is a fine player, but I also think people are getting a litle ahead of themselves with their opinions of this guy.
Let's be honest, this guys has limited experience. He is playing in an environment where he can do just about anything he wants and he is not called upon to play much defense. I would suggest that there are many other defensemen that could produce as much if they were not counted on to play defense as well.
He reminds me a lot of Mike Green. Jump on scene and impresses everyone with all these points. Where is he now???
Top defensemen does not mean top scoring defensemen. Until Karlsson plays the same kind of minutes as the like of Suter, Doughty, Weber, Keith, Seabrook et al, than he will not be discussed as one of the best. He doesn't deserve it yet. Top offensive defenseman is the discussion he belong in, not top defenseman. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 01/16/2012 : 14:20:49
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I don't think Karlsson will be a Norris candidate this season, but if he's 10 points ahead of the next defenseman in points, he will get some consideration. Because to a lot of hockey fans (and hockey writers too), points are "sexy."
I think the prospects are very good for this young defenseman. He joins two other young defensemen in the top 10 list of even-strength minutes: Ryan McDonaugh (22) and Nick Leddy (20) currently rank 3rd and 8th amongst guys like Bouwmeester, Keith, Beauchemin and Bieksa. That's pretty good company.
And McDonaugh (NYR) and Leddy (Hawks) play for very good teams, so their on-ice minutes are quite impressive.
People often say that defensemen take longer to blossom in the NHL, but these three guys defy that assertion.
Where will they be in 3-4 years? Who knows, but to be that good at 20-22 years of age is quite impressive!
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Guest4377
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Posted - 02/26/2012 : 17:39:33
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I think most hockey fans will finally admit that Erik Karlsson looks like a Norris candidate now!
He currently leads NHL defensemen with 65 points in 63 games, 23 points ahead of the next best defenseman for points. He has 13 even strength goals, 5 more than the next goal-producing defenseman.
Karlsson is currently sitting in 7th place in overall points. The next nearest defenseman (Brian Campbell) is 76th!
He continues to lead all NHL defensemen in even strength minutes played, and 5th in overall minutes played by a defenseman.
As far as the knock about him lacking shorthanded minutes, I don't think this is a big negative.
To give you an example, Malkin and Stamkos are leading the race for the Art Ross, and both centremen are likely candidates for the Hart, but they have blemishes too. They're not terrific in the face-off circle, but their positives outweigh this slight negative.
Malkin and Stamkos are both likely to appear on the Hart ballot, and I'm quite certain Karlsson's name will appear on the Norris ballot! And who thought so 3-4 months ago? Better yet, who thought so 5-6 weeks ago, when he was already proving himself as an elite NHL defenseman?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 23:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377
I think most hockey fans will finally admit that Erik Karlsson looks like a Norris candidate now!
He currently leads NHL defensemen with 65 points in 63 games, 23 points ahead of the next best defenseman for points. He has 13 even strength goals, 5 more than the next goal-producing defenseman.
Karlsson is currently sitting in 7th place in overall points. The next nearest defenseman (Brian Campbell) is 76th!
He continues to lead all NHL defensemen in even strength minutes played, and 5th in overall minutes played by a defenseman.
As far as the knock about him lacking shorthanded minutes, I don't think this is a big negative.
To give you an example, Malkin and Stamkos are leading the race for the Art Ross, and both centremen are likely candidates for the Hart, but they have blemishes too. They're not terrific in the face-off circle, but their positives outweigh this slight negative.
Malkin and Stamkos are both likely to appear on the Hart ballot, and I'm quite certain Karlsson's name will appear on the Norris ballot! And who thought so 3-4 months ago? Better yet, who thought so 5-6 weeks ago, when he was already proving himself as an elite NHL defenseman?
What do faceoffs have to do with the Hart trophy? Corey Perry won the Hart trophy last year, and he only took 22 faceoffs all year long (and won 9). The answer is nothing - faceoff % does not factor into the description about the award, and probably do not factor into the voting.
However, playing "all around" defense does factor into the Norris Trophy description. "All around defense" would normally include excelling at even strength, PP, and PK. Karlsson does 2 well, and the 3rd not at all. He has points galore and plays 25 mins/game, but currently ranks dead last on his team - by a fair margin too - in PK time.
Karlsson might get a finalist position due to the sheer number of points he's getting - you're right, he's well ahead of his competition in that regard. However, IMO he has almost zero chance of winning it, and in fact may not even make the final ballot (perhaps he finishes 4th or 5th). And it will be almost certainly due to his lack of PK time. Going back to 1998 (as far back as NHL.com goes with stats), every Norris trophy winner has played more than 2 min/game SH in their trophy winning seasons. Pronger and MacInnis (1999 and 1998) played over 5 minutes/game SH!
If I had to pick who the finalists would be today, I'd choose:
- Brian Campbell - 42 pts, over 27 min/game, including 1:18 PK and 4:00 on the PP. He is carrying the FLA defense on his back. His only blemish is -8 on the year.
- Shea Weber - 40 pts, over 26 min/game, 2:30 SH, 3:30 PK, +18
- Ryan Suter - see Weber, stats are almost identical, except only +11.
Karlsson's time will come - he's young and has plenty of years in front of him. OTT will start to give him PK responsibilities soon enough, and we'll see him become that complete defenseman that everyone thinks he will become. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 06:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I like Karlsson and I think he is a fine player, but I also think people are getting a litle ahead of themselves with their opinions of this guy.
Let's be honest, this guys has limited experience. He is playing in an environment where he can do just about anything he wants and he is not called upon to play much defense. I would suggest that there are many other defensemen that could produce as much if they were not counted on to play defense as well.
He reminds me a lot of Mike Green. Jump on scene and impresses everyone with all these points. Where is he now???
Top defensemen does not mean top scoring defensemen. Until Karlsson plays the same kind of minutes as the like of Suter, Doughty, Weber, Keith, Seabrook et al, than he will not be discussed as one of the best. He doesn't deserve it yet. Top offensive defenseman is the discussion he belong in, not top defenseman.
Looks like you were wrong, Beans - Karlsson is looking awesome, and surely will be a rookie d-man to have a Norris nomination. Bank on it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 06:24:00
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| Karlsson is currently tied with Kessel for 6th overall in the NHL scoring race! That's pretty impressive. |
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Guest5744
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Posted - 02/27/2012 : 06:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Looks like you were wrong, Beans - Karlsson is looking awesome, and surely will be a rookie d-man to have a Norris nomination. Bank on it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
karlsson, a rookie? ...
its his third year. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 02/27/2012 : 09:42:49
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"Karlsson's time will come." ???
By most accounts, he's one of the top 5 defenseman in the NHL right now, and many people agree that he will be a candidate for the James Norris Trophy.
Nothing wrong with that, so while his time may still come, Karlsson is deserving of some credit for how well he's doing this season. (Notwithstanding that he may improve in the future.)
As it relates to penalty kill minutes, Brian Campbell isn't much better than Karlsson, averaging only an extra 44 seconds per game on the penalty kill. Campbell's penalty kill time average (1:18 minutes per game) puts him in 150th spot amongst NHL defensemen. Yes, he's ahead of Karlsson in this category, but how important is this category in Norris votes?
Points are not only "sexy," but they do matter! If Karlsson continues his current pace (more than a point-per-game) for the last 20% of the season, I'm pretty sure he will be on the Norris ballot. When was the last time a defenseman averaged a point-per-game, and was not a Norris candidate? I could look up this stat, but I will save the time. My guess is that it hasn't happened in a long time. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 09:53:18
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The Norris has often been an offensive-defensemen award. It's not like the guy can be a total pylon and win but more often than not the nominees are in the top 5-10 of defensemen scoring.
It's hard to argue with anything Karlsson is doing offensively. He's a stud. From what I have watched from him he is blazingly fast and moves the puck well too. However, a serious question to the Sens fans and/or those out East who see him a lot more than us in Edmonton:
How is he defensively?? How is he on the PK?? Does he shut the other team down?? |
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Guest5091
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Posted - 02/27/2012 : 10:40:13
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PK: Hasn't done much of it this year because Maclean is smart and doesn't tire him out doing what several others can do adequately, saving him for when he helps out the team most - ES and PP time. To also have him kill the penalties would drive his ice time up and he's already playing 25+ each night, occasionally going over 30.
That said, he proved last year that he could PK well. There's a quote floating around saying that the coaches thought he was one of the better PKers on the team.
Defensively, he's... hard to quantify. For long stretches of a game, he'll be far above average and then he'll make an ill-advised pinch or play. Those moments are getting rarer as he ages but they're still there. The good news is that half the time, his speed can make up for the error. For example, http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlg=20112012,2,561&event=BUF242 demonstrates all of that in one short clip against Pomainville, a guy who's not slow by any stretch.
He plays against the opposition's top lines and for the most part, he does a good job of it. He's not the Karlsson of yesteryear anymore, where you'd cringe when he was on in the defensive zone. He and his defensive partner are top 2 in +/- on the team (and his defensive partner is Filip Kuba, a guy who many Sens fans wanted to see traded at the start of the year. The best Kuba had ever managed before this year was a +4.)
Him/Spezza/Anderson have taken what everyone considered to be a dead-last (or, at best, lottery) team and turned them into a playoff team. If they can get up to 6th, I expect them to last longer than 1 round, too. |
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 15:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
The Norris has often been an offensive-defensemen award. It's not like the guy can be a total pylon and win but more often than not the nominees are in the top 5-10 of defensemen scoring.
It's hard to argue with anything Karlsson is doing offensively. He's a stud. From what I have watched from him he is blazingly fast and moves the puck well too. However, a serious question to the Sens fans and/or those out East who see him a lot more than us in Edmonton:
How is he defensively?? How is he on the PK?? Does he shut the other team down??
This guy use's point's to shut the other team down.
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Guest4377
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Posted - 02/28/2012 : 20:07:23
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What's the relevance or importance of a defenseman's penalty kill minutes? When considering the top defensemen in the NHL, where do penalty kill minutes register compared with other factors or stats?
I suspect penalty kill minutes do not register as a big factor, because players who play the penalty kill are specialists. Important players to be sure, but not always (or usually) the best players with their respective position.
Crosby and Malkin rarely play on the penalty kill, with the Penguins relying on Craig Adams and Matt Cooke to fill this role with the Penguins. This is not a slight on the superstar Penguins players (one who is out of the line-up right now), but a confirmation that these players are needed more at even strength and on the power play. They can't play every second shift after all.
And how about Steve Stamkos in Tampa Bay? Well, he averages a small fraction of the time Tom Pyatt or Nate Thompson play on the penalty kill. And the Sedins? They average :05 each on the penalty kill, which is virtually no time at all, allowing themselves more time where they are most effective. (And allowing other Canucks players to kill penalties.)
Malkin, Crosby, Stamkos and the Sedins are all top players in the NHL, but they virtually have no penalty kill time, but I've never heard anyone comment on their lack of penalty kill time. Or that the lack thereof is a factor in determining their consideration as a top player in the NHL.
Getting back to defensemen, I looked at the top 10 defensemen for penalty kill minutes, and the list included Hal Gill, Willie Mitchell, Josh Gorges and Ladislav Smid to name a few. All decent defensemen, but no all-stars (or Norris candidates) in the group.
So if the biggest knock you can find on Karlsson is his lack of time on the penalty kill, well then, you're digging pretty deep.
There's no player without a blemish, including Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc. And while Karlsson is not in the category of the aforementioned players, he definitely deserves credit for what he is (regardless of what he will become), and that is one of the top defensemen in the NHL.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 20:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377
What's the relevance or importance of a defenseman's penalty kill minutes? When considering the top defensemen in the NHL, where do penalty kill minutes register compared with other factors or stats?
I suspect penalty kill minutes do not register as a big factor, because players who play the penalty kill are specialists. Important players to be sure, but not always (or usually) the best players with their respective position.
I didn't say that PK was an overriding importance in voting, but it certainly must be considered for any Norris trophy defenseman in voting. Its an award given to the best all-around defenseman, and all-around means you play PK. What greater show of trust is there in a defenseman's actual defensive ability, than putting him out on the PK - the toughest defensive assignment in any game?
How do you give the award for best defenseman, to a guy that doesn't play in the most difficult defensive assignments for his team? There are certainly PK specialists, and no, none of them are going to be up for the Norris. However, Karlsson is playing less than 30 seconds a night, which is pretty glaring in comparison to his peers.
Find me a defenseman that played less than 2:00/game on PK in the year that they won the Norris trophy, and I will possibly change my perspective on Karlsson's Norris chances this year. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 02/28/2012 20:28:35 |
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Guest4377
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Posted - 02/28/2012 : 20:39:13
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Nuxfan - you're being defensive, pardon the pun.
A defensemen's time on the penalty kill has as much relevance to me (or award winner voters) as it does with the time spent by forwards on the penalty kill.
Admit it - Karlsson is an elite NHL defenseman. He's a top 10 defensemen for sure, and to most, a top 5 defenseman, and to perhaps a few (I speculate more than that), a Norris candidate this season. Put me in the category of people who believe he's a Norris candidate this season, and that's just my opinion after all. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 21:06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377
Nuxfan - you're being defensive, pardon the pun.
A defensemen's time on the penalty kill has as much relevance to me (or award winner voters) as it does with the time spent by forwards on the penalty kill.
Admit it - Karlsson is an elite NHL defenseman. He's a top 10 defensemen for sure, and to most, a top 5 defenseman, and to perhaps a few (I speculate more than that), a Norris candidate this season. Put me in the category of people who believe he's a Norris candidate this season, and that's just my opinion after all.
He'll probably get on the ballot - his sheer lead in scoring will do that I think. I absolutely do not think he'll win. I agree he's a great offensive defenseman, its impossible to defend otherwise. He's dynamite on the PP, and seems to play steady even strength as well. He's young, and looks to be a great defenseman going forward.
Again though - find me a Norris winner who did not play significant (2:00 or greater average TOI per game) PK time, in addition to the (I would think mandatory) >25 min overall TOI. In fact, don't worry about winner, find me a finalist. I can certainly find plenty of examples where the Norris winner did not lead all defensemen in scoring in their winning years... |
Edited by - nuxfan on 02/28/2012 21:07:57 |
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Guest4377
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Posted - 02/28/2012 : 21:55:43
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So you now agree Karlsson will be on the ballot for the Norris!
Are you now changing your mind on the Norris finalists? Previously you stated that Campbell, Weber and Suter would be on the ballot of Norris finalists.
I put Karlsson on the ballot two months ago, and at the very least, I've stated that he's an elite defenseman, even if not a Norris candidate.
And what about the top NHL forwards who don't generate penalty kill minutes? You haven't answered that!
Let's skip past Malkin, Crosby and Stamkos who don't play on the penalty kill.
Your moniker is "Nuxfan," which implies you're a fan of the Canucks. How about the Sedins? They don't play on the penalty kill, but I think you would agree that they are great players despite the fact they don't kill penalties? I definitely think they're great players, despite this "apparent" weakness.
I have no bias to any team (or player), including Karlsson, or the Ottawa Senators. I'm just a hockey fan, and to me, Karlsson is a great hockey player.
For the record, I was around during the Gretzky years, and I remember people saying that Gretzky (and the Oilers) was (were) not proven as a hockey player (or team) prior to 1984, but the truth turned out to be different. And I also remember people remarking on Gretzky's weaknesses as a player.
Karlsson (and the Senators) is not Gretzky (and the Oilers), but I like picking players (and teams) which are either great or destined for greatness. Karlsson is a great player already (not necessarily the team), and I'm fine if some hockey fans (even well informed fans) who don't see what I see. I've been down that path before, and after all, it's just a matter of opinion.
But one thing for sure, Karlsson is a top defenseman in the NHL, and I think he will be on the ballot for the Norris!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 22:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377
So you now agree Karlsson will be on the ballot for the Norris!
Are you now changing your mind on the Norris finalists? Previously you stated that Campbell, Weber and Suter would be on the ballot of Norris finalists.
I put Karlsson on the ballot two months ago, and at the very least, I've stated that he's an elite defenseman, even if not a Norris candidate.
And what about the top NHL forwards who don't generate penalty kill minutes? You haven't answered that!
Let's skip past Malkin, Crosby and Stamkos who don't play on the penalty kill.
Your moniker is "Nuxfan," which implies you're a fan of the Canucks. How about the Sedins? They don't play on the penalty kill, but I think you would agree that they are great players despite the fact they don't kill penalties? I definitely think they're great players, despite this "apparent" weakness.
I have no bias to any team (or player), including Karlsson, or the Ottawa Senators. I'm just a hockey fan, and to me, Karlsson is a great hockey player.
For the record, I was around during the Gretzky years, and I remember people saying that Gretzky (and the Oilers) was (were) not proven as a hockey player (or team) prior to 1984, but the truth turned out to be different. And I also remember people remarking on Gretzky's weaknesses as a player.
Karlsson (and the Senators) is not Gretzky (and the Oilers), but I like picking players (and teams) which are either great or destined for greatness. Karlsson is a great player already (not necessarily the team), and I'm fine if some hockey fans (even well informed fans) who don't see what I see. I've been down that path before, and after all, it's just a matter of opinion.
But one thing for sure, Karlsson is a top defenseman in the NHL, and I think he will be on the ballot for the Norris!
No, I'm not changing my mind - those are the players that I would put on the ballot if I was choosing 3 finalists as of 2 days ago. Honestly, I don't know if Karlsson will be an finalist - he could be because of his point total, and looking back there is certainly precedent for the top defensive point getter to be on the ballot, even if they don't win very often. So, even though I might not put him on my list (I value more than sheer point total in a defenseman), the NHL probably will.
I didn't answer your question about forwards because I'm not sure how its relevant to the discussion of top all-around defenseman. There is no award for best "all around forward" in the NHL - there is one for top scoring, one for primary defensive play, and one for sportsmanship. The forwards you mentioned are all great forwards though, scoring machines with varying levels of defensive responsibility and physical abilities. I don't know if any of them could be considered the best "all around forward" though, it would depend on how you define "all around". I certainly hope that "all around" would not equate to "scoring". Just like it should not for the Norris trophy.
I am a fan of the Canucks, and am heavily biased towards them. However, outside of my Canuck fandom and a slight negative bias against CHI and BOS  , I really don't have any allegiances. I have no bone to pick with OTT, nor with Karlsson, and happily recognize that he's a top offensive defenseman and has had a breakout season in that regard, and we'll probably see him get even better. I'm just expressing an opinion that I do not think he is the best "all around" defenseman, as he is completely lacking in one of the (IMO) 3 main defensive playing situations.
The irony is that while I don't think Karlsson would be a good candidate for the Norris, I do think he should get serious consideration for the Hart trophy. He has been that important to OTT this year.
BTW - still waiting for that list of Norris trophy finalists that don't kill penalties...take your time  |
Edited by - nuxfan on 02/28/2012 22:45:26 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 23:03:10
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I have to agree with the guest that Karlsson will be on the ballot. As you (nuxfan) mentioned, his points alone (and how far he is ahead of the next few dmen points-wise) should get him there! Will he win it? While i won't be shocked if he does (ppg, top 10 in the league?), i also won't be shocked if Shea Weber wins it. I said it last year with the Selke when Kesler won it, it was his turn. I get the feeling a lot of voters vote this way and will be biased towards Weber who i still think should have won it last year. I bet some voters voted Lidstrom last year with the thought "ah, give it to Nik, he's almost done, Weber's got years of winning it ahead of him". Karlsson's never been on the ballot and voters can simply use the "Weber is more all around".
Regardless, Karlsson is playing incredibly! I knew he was good, but to have this crazy of a jump in stats is just awesome. Another thing many prob don't see is his +/-. Last year it was -30 at the end of the season.....right now it sits at a healthy +15. I know it's not the greatest stat to go by, but that's a big enough jump to not simply ignore it either!!! |
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Guest4377
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Posted - 02/29/2012 : 00:16:29
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First of all, I have to comment that it"s great chatting hockey with Nuxfan and Alex!
Both make their hockey points without bias or pomposity.
However, and with all due respect, I still maintain (and disagree) with Nuxfan that Karlsson is a deserved Norris candidate. I think Karlsson will be on the ballot, and also, that he deserves to be on the Norris ballot.
I think Nuxfan (finally) agrees that Karlsson will be on the Norris ballot, but he continues to maintain that Karlsson is not yet quite deserving. But I think there's (finally also) agreement that Karlsson is a top NHL defenseman.
As far as an award for "best overall around forward," Nuxfan is right that there is no such award, but one most admit that the Hart Trophy is for the most valuable player in the NHL, and that all factors are considered, and not unlike deciding the best defenseman in the league, who really looks at penalty kill minutes in determining the best player or defenseman in the NHL?
Was this a consideration when Orr, Bourque or Coffey won the Norris, or the finalists who appeared on the ballot? I hardly think it merited a thought, and when looking at things today, does it really matter how many penalty kill minutes a player plays in determining their overall value??
Once again, take a look at Malkin, Crosby, Stamkos and the Sedins! They don't kill penalties, but who would diminish their value?
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Guest7116
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Posted - 02/29/2012 : 03:13:08
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| I have seen both Crosby and Stamkos PK. I remember the one playoff year it was such a big deal because crosby had to play on Hal Gills side and work extra hard because of how slow Gill was lol. There was a whole segment on it because Crosby had to cover so much ice. p.s and underrated d thats having a good season is Kronwall. Doesn't get to many points but quietly has 13 goals and logs huge mins on the pk and against the opposing top lines. |
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Shepsky
Rookie
Canada
211 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 05:13:26
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| Norris trophy or not, one thing is for sure, Erik Karlsson is showing that he is one hell of an offensive talent for a blue liner. Coming down the stretch he is really playing well, moving the puck nicely, and scoring goals. There isn't a defenceman in the league that will be able to catch Karlsson for points this year, more importantly, he is giving me a small chance to catch up in my hockey pool! |
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Guest9084
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Posted - 02/29/2012 : 05:13:36
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For what it's worth, Karlsson had 1:23 PK time yesterday, including the final moments of a 1-0 game. When your coach is willing to put you out on a 6 on 4, it shows confidence. His lack of PK time isn't because of inability.
Even perennial winner Lidstrom doesn't average 2 minutes of PK per game. Coincidentally, the Paulrus used to be an assistant coach in Detroit. That same philosophy carried over to his tenure as the Ottawa coach and it's working fantastically.
With the game on the line, for the Sens, I want Karlsson on the ice both defensively and offensively. |
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Guest5091
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Posted - 02/29/2012 : 06:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9084
For what it's worth, Karlsson had 1:23 PK time yesterday, including the final moments of a 1-0 game. When your coach is willing to put you out on a 6 on 4, it shows confidence. His lack of PK time isn't because of inability.
Even perennial winner Lidstrom doesn't average 2 minutes of PK per game. Coincidentally, the Paulrus used to be an assistant coach in Detroit. That same philosophy carried over to his tenure as the Ottawa coach and it's working fantastically.
With the game on the line, for the Sens, I want Karlsson on the ice both defensively and offensively.
I agree completely. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a Weber on in that situation but Karlsson is far and away Ottawa's best option for it. It also helps that that late in a game, there's no reason to keep him fresh anymore so you can afford to "waste" him on a PK... My friend's response to why they put him out there was "so he can pad his stats on an empty net". Nevermind that all that that would do is make the Sens have to pay him even more at the end of the year... It's hard to break a first impression, even when it's no longer applicable.
As for the Detroit comment, it's most obvious in Datsyuk's short handed time. You'd think that a constant Selke winner would see more than a minute of short handed play per game but he doesn't. Same logic applies. It's not surprising, considering MacLean learned from and now applies the Detroit system in Ottawa. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 08:48:35
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Here are a few thoughts:
I agree that Karlsson will be on the Norris ballot. He's on pace to be a PPG defensemen which is super rare and super special. He deserves to be there for that reason alone.
I also don't see the relevance of the forwards when discussing the PK. It seems like some are comparing the Norris to the Hart. They are not one and the same. The Norris is comparable to the Selke as the Norris being the best all around defensement (meaning offensively and defensively) and the Selke is the best 2 way forward (also meaning offensively and defensively).
Finally, I don't think that a Norris winner has to be a top 5-10 player in PK time in the entire NHL. But I do think that a Norris winner needs to be (at minimum) the defenseman on his respective team that is counted on for all situations. PK, PP, and even strength. If you look at the history of the award, most of the winners are either great at both ends of the ice (Lidstrom, Pronger, Neidermayer, Bourque, etc) or exceptional at one end of the ice (Coffey, MacInnis, and Leetch offensively, Langway, Wilson, and Carlyle defensively).
Karlsson may win the Norris and I wouldn't complain much as he is, at least this season, exceptional offensively. I am not sold that he is a great player on both ends of the ice, at least at this point in his career. |
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Guest2302
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Posted - 02/29/2012 : 16:27:25
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| One yr wonder.. |
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Shepsky
Rookie
Canada
211 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 17:06:31
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| well guest 2302, Erik Karlsson actually played 6 games in 09/10 season, getting six points, I know it's only six games, but that's exactly a point per game if you aren't very good at math, then in 10/11 he played 75 games, pretty much a full season. In those 75 games, he acquired 45 points on a team ranked 26th overall for goals/game, not what anyone would call a poor first season. That is 0.6 points per game, pretty good for a rookie d-man. Now technically in his 3rd year, 2nd full one he has only improved on his play, although note that Ottawa went from 26th in scoring last year, to where they currently sit at 6th overall for goals/game, but Karlsson has improved from 0.6 points per game to this year where he currently has 66 points in 64 games which is a whopping 1.03 points per game, and he has a +15, not incredible, but not terrible either. These are the reasons why Erik Karlsson will NOT be a one year wonder, mainly he is already past one year. In fact I scooped him up in my hockey pool, and I think anyone would be dumb not to next year! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 18:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Karlsson may win the Norris and I wouldn't complain much as he is, at least this season, exceptional offensively. I am not sold that he is a great player on both ends of the ice, at least at this point in his career.
IMO, this year is shaping up to look a lot like 2008/09 for the Norris trophy.
That year, a young Mike Green finished with 73 pts in 68 games - more than PPG, everyone thought he was a shoe-in for the Norris. So many points, he's the second coming of Paul Coffey! He had a phenomenal year for WSH, 31g, boatloads on the PP, played 25+ min per game. His coach even dared to use him on the PK, over 2min/game. Was the cornerstone of the defense for the Caps.
Instead, the Norris went to Chara - he finished with 2/3 the points, only 50. Slightly more min/game, more time on the PK, but generally lesser stats than Green (and many others around him). However, in truth, Chara was the better all-around defenseman - he had points, but he brought so much more defense to the position than Green.
I think the NHL made a good choice that year, in overlooking the obvious offensively talented Green in favour of the all around player. We'll see what happens this year.
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Guest4377
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Posted - 02/29/2012 : 19:05:15
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I think Karlsson will be on the Norris ballot, but I wouldn't necessarily pick him to win the Norris. That's an important distinction, him being one of the top three candidates for the Norris, rather that stating that he will win the award. It will be a close race, and the last five weeks of the season may swing things one way or another.
Every year is a different race, so I'm not sure of the relevance of what took place in 2008-2009. With offensively productive Mike Green being a Norris finalist, it seems to confirm my contention that Karlsson will be on the ballot this season. (With his points production being the biggest feather in his cap.)
I was going to leave Nuxfan's comment about finding a Norris finalist who does not play penalty kill minutes alone, but he provides the best example.
In Nuxfan's list of likely Norris candidates, he has included Brian Campbell, and according to the stats he provided, Campbell averages far less than the 2:00 per game criteria he suggested as a minimum standard for being on the Norris ballot. In fact, Campbell ranks around 150th in PK minutes for defensemen. With only around 200 defensemen in the NHL, this puts Campbell in the bottom 25% in this category.
As it relates to PK minutes, I'm not suggesting that time on the penalty kill has no significance, but it registers very low in comparison to other factors.
As far as what happens this year, I'm pretty sure Karlsson will be on the ballot, and I'm less certain about Campbell.
At the end of the day, one can always say they disagree about the choices, but my contention has not only been that Karlsson (so far this season) looks deserving to be on the ballot, I'm suggesting (predicting actually) that his name will be on the ballot!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 19:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377
I was going to leave Nuxfan's comment about finding a Norris finalist who does not play penalty kill minutes alone, but he provides the best example.
In Nuxfan's list of likely Norris candidates, he has included Brian Campbell, and according to the stats he provided, Campbell averages far less than the 2:00 per game criteria he suggested as a minimum standard for being on the Norris ballot. In fact, Campbell ranks around 150th in PK minutes for defensemen. With only around 200 defensemen in the NHL, this puts Campbell in the bottom 25% in this category.
It is a good point - slayed by my own list . At the time I figured he might be a finalist, he was leading the league by a fair margin in overall ice time - he was well over 27 min/game, which I felt might have mitigated his paltry 1:30 of PK time. He has since dropped down to just under 27 min/game, and is just behind Girardi. He has also been a big reason for the success of a team that has been one of this year's biggest surprises.
However, Campbell is not a Norris finalist, nor has he ever been one. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 19:35:54
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It's early, but i'll throw my ballot out there for you guys. 
1. S. Weber
2. E. Karlsson
3. Z. Chara
My thinking is Weber wins it, just like he should have last year imo.
My darkhorse would be A. Pietrangelo in St. Louis. Plays 3 mins per game SH, good +/- and as far as i know, mans the point beside Shattenkirk on the first unit PP. Oh, and has a decent number of points, though nothing close to Karlsson!
Wow, have to say, i just looked at Karlsson's numbers, and though he does have a ton of assists on the PP, he only has 2 of his 15 goals there! 13 even strength goals is pretty impressive!! |
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Guest4143
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Posted - 03/01/2012 : 08:55:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2302
One yr wonder..
Hardly. Are you serious?? The guy has steadily improved in his 3 years. Sounds to me like this may be wishful thinking.
Beans, while the knock on him in the past has been his defensive play, I can assure you that is no longer the case. His all round game has dramatically improved this year alone, and its reflected in his stats. +15 doesn't infer a defensive liability. He has gotten much better at choosing his spots, and he has gotten a lot better when he makes a mistake that he can recover with his speed.
He will be on the ballot and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he wins. He is deserving. |
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topcornermax
Top Prospect
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 12:11:47
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| I agree with Weber being the top Dman in the league |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 14:01:16
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Don't confuse +/- with a defensive stat because it is not. He is a plus every time he is on the ice for an ESG. For that reason, and the fact that he has 40 ESG himself, +15 is not that impressive at all!
Low points and a high +/- is normally an indication of better defensive play.
High points and a high +/- is more linely an indication of better offensive play. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 20:47:10
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Good read Alex. Interestingly enough, there is a link to a discussion on hfboards about PK and the Norris trophy (how important it is, how its correlated in past winners). It starts off in 2010, but the last few are from a couple of months ago regarding Karlsson.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=758940 |
Edited by - nuxfan on 03/01/2012 20:47:26 |
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Most Underrated: Erik Karlsson 
