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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2012 : 21:50:06
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How about, same deal, to Anaheim for Bobby Ryan?
I think the Oilers obviously need to continue to build, but need to get some proven talent, they have drafted extremely well, but now need a supporting and supportive cast to complement those picks. With them having another shot at a lottery pick, maybe now is the time to get a proven commodity, when the pick is worth that.
Maybe Hemsky and that 1st rounder are too much for a Carter or Ryan, but I think either of those 2 would be dynamite with Eberle and Hopkins, and if possible, it would be worth a slight overpayment by the Oilers to make it happen.
Again, just wishful thinking, with perhaps some grain of realism.... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 22:44:25
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FER....you got something against T. Hall? Or you just trying to balance the scoring?
As for B. Ryan, i'm not completely sold on him just yet and it's only partially to do with the poor first half he had this year. Don't get me wrong, i know he's a talented player, but just how good can he be? It scares me that he's had Getzlaf and Perry to play with since day 1. Not saying RNH and Eberle wouldn't be great to play with as well, but are these guys making Ryan look better than he is? Ahem, cough couch, Dustin Penner, cough....
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 04:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
Since the name came up, how about;
To Edmonton - Jeff Carter
To Columbus - Ales Hemsky
2012 1st Round draft pick
Cap hit stays the same, Edmonton gets a trigger man with size and grit to play with Eberle and Hopkins.
Columbus gets a top 6 forward and what will probably be a top 3 pick.
?
That sounds like a HUGE overpayment at this point. Seriously.
Carter's numbers are WAY down, he's now got a bit of a chronic injury label (two foot fractures in 2 years), and he is seen by every GM as a malcontent. And the kicker? Whoever signs him, knows that his no-trade clause kicks in for the 2012/13 season . . . which means that basically, whoever gets him in a trade is stuck with him for quite a few years.
The word out of Columbus in terms of Carter getting shopped is that GMs have become leery of all these things. He has actively been shopped for a while now (despite what the BlueJackets GM might say) and he's still there . . . that in itself is a sign that their asking price - which might be around what you propose here, Fat Elvis, or even a bit less - is too steep for the teams willing to take him on.
I think by the trade deadline, Columbus will take someone like a Hemsky with a 3rd round draft pick (basically straight up). My prediction is that Carter is a deadline day deal.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 07:49:05
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That I would love to see! Hemsky and a 3rd?
I would do that deal in a heartbeat. Although his numbers are down, and he missed 20ish games this year, he only missed 10 games in the previous 4, so chronic may be a bit of an overstatement.
He is a proven 30+ goal scorer, and as we've heard debated here before, that's gold in some's opinions. 
The attitude controversy? Right place, right team, who knows? If I got in to some hot water at work and they shipped me off to the computer version of Columbus, I would probably need an attitude adjustment as well. 
I will agree that a 1st rounder is indeed steep, and I would love to see your scenario, Hemsky and 3rd, well worth the risk, IMO. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 09:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
That I would love to see! Hemsky and a 3rd?
I would do that deal in a heartbeat. Although his numbers are down, and he missed 20ish games this year, he only missed 10 games in the previous 4, so chronic may be a bit of an overstatement.
He is a proven 30+ goal scorer, and as we've heard debated here before, that's gold in some's opinions.
The attitude controversy? Right place, right team, who knows? If I got in to some hot water at work and they shipped me off to the computer version of Columbus, I would probably need an attitude adjustment as well.
I will agree that a 1st rounder is indeed steep, and I would love to see your scenario, Hemsky and 3rd, well worth the risk, IMO.
this deal just makes no sense - why is Hemsky going to CBJ? They have no chance of making the playoffs, and Hemsky would be sought after by playoff-bound teams that would be willing to pay for him. Why would CBJ want him, given that they suck and Hemsky is UFA this summer and unlikely to resign there without testing the market.
Therefore this deal where Carter goes to CBJ is about the draft pick in return. I don't know that a top-5 draft pick is an overpayment for Carter honestly. A 3rd round pick for Carter as a fair deal is absolute garbage. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 10:18:41
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Of course it makes no sense, that's why about a half dozen posts back I said, 'ahhh to dream'.
You Canuckleheads are so serious!  |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 10:59:42
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fair enough.
I do see scenarios whereby a) Hemsky leaves EDM and b) Carter goes to EDM. Just not in one direct trade. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 11:06:48
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No, actually the deal makes a ton of sense. If the stories out of CBJ are true and Carter is not the guy they want long term than this deal is more about unloading the contract and less about getting equal value in return. As previously stated, Carter's no trade clause kicks in starting 12/13, which means he will have the choice of where he goes for the next 9 years.
If CBJ unloads Carter for Hemsky and a pick then goal accomplished. They can then spend the $5+ million per season on a different player and not be locked in for 9 years. If players is Hemsky, so be it. If not, it is someone else.
It's a solid deal for CBJ from that perspective. As an Oiler fan I am not sure. 9 yrs is a long time for a player with the reputation of being a risk.
Also, back to Alex point about Gagner. Firstly, Gagner is still the shining star of that draft class. Considering he gets weak minutes in Edmonton and averages 1/2 PPG makes him valuable. He is an RFA which also makes him valuable and he is 23 yrs old which also makes him valuable. I think you are grossly under-estimating Gagner's abilities. I am personally not a fan of him as a player but his 1/2 PPG makes him a legit top 6 forward in the NHL. There are at least 1/2 the teams in the NHL who are seeking a top 6 forwards. Hemsky and Gagner for Suter is too much. Not by a lot, but it is still too much. I would agree with Bergfors and Weber Suter for Gagner and Hemsky. That being said, the rumor is that Nashville's asking price for Suter is very high. Frankly, Edmonton is putting young pieces together for the future. If Suter is committed to winning than there are teams worse than Edmonton to be a part of. If Edmonton can add a Suter type defender and one more stable blue liner, they will be pretty sick top to bottom. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/01/2012 12:52:24 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 11:31:37
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Beans, where'd Weber sneak into this? Regardless of "how", the Weber/Bergfors for Hemsky/Gagner is more unlikely imo than the Perry to the Canucks scenario!
As for Suter, you're absolutely right in saying that Suter may be interesting in a team which is clearly committed to building a winner and he may agree to re-sign there. I still think if i were an Edm fan, i'd be more than happy to deal Hemsky and Gagner for Suter, having said that, the more i look into it, the more i think Suter remains a Pred. I think they need to take a serious look at their team and make all efforts possible to show that they are trying to take the next step. IF they can win a couple rounds and make the Western final, it could be enough to prove to Suter that they're close and he should stick around! To do this, i think you'll see Nashville as a "buyer" at the deadline and they may give up prospects and picks to pick up some scoring depth! |
Edited by - Alex116 on 02/01/2012 11:33:47 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 12:00:46
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quote:
If CBJ unloads Carter for Hemsky and a pick then goal accomplished. They can then spend the $5+ million per season on a different player and not be locked in for 9 years. If players is Hemsky, so be it. If not, it is someone else.
I don't doubt that CBJ will want to unload Carter - for the reasons you specified - and that EDM would be a good landing spot for him. However, I don't have a clue as to why CBJ would be interested in Hemsky, as he is UFA after this season and is bound to get good offers on teams better than CBJ. Unless CBJ could somehow sign him to an extension (and make the trade contingent on that), then it makes no sense whatsoever.
However, CBJ being interested in a lottery pick for Carter is entirely credible.
quote:
Also, back to Alex point about Gagner. Firstly, Gagner is still the shining star of that draft class
Sam Gagner is the "shining star" of the 2007 draft class? A draft class that included Patrick Kane, Karl Alzner, Logan Couture, Kevin Shattenkirk, Max Pacioretty, and David Perron? Really???
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Edited by - nuxfan on 02/01/2012 12:01:12 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 12:59:51
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Nux, you seemed to have missed by point in the Carter/Hemsky situation. It's not about the return for Carter, it about the money freed up. If they sign Hemsky longer term, great. If not, they sign another players for less than the 9 yrs for the same or less money. The value is not being saddled with $5 million for 9 yrs. They could sign Hemsky, or they could use that money to go after other UFA's. Maybe go after Parise in the offseason. Maybe Stoll, Hudler, or Grabovski who could be gotten for less than $5 million, for less than 9 yrs, and produce as much.
As far as the 'shining star' comment, I forgot about Patrick Kane. Gagner is #2 in that draft class in games played, goals, assists, and points. Not the shining star but there is more value in a player a player who is 23 yrs old offensive forward who has a 0.6 PPG average than Alex is giving credit to. Hemsky and Gagner is too much for Suter.
(Sorry for the typo when I put Weber's name in for Suter in the last post.) |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 14:06:18
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| I'm just watching NHL Live. Darren Dreger is on & he doesn't think Nashville will move Ryan Suter. However he says if the Preds did decide to move him, the Preds would be seeking a roster player, a A-level prospect, a B-level prospect & a 1st round draft pick. Pretty steep! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 14:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nux, you seemed to have missed by point in the Carter/Hemsky situation. It's not about the return for Carter, it about the money freed up. If they sign Hemsky longer term, great. If not, they sign another players for less than the 9 yrs for the same or less money. The value is not being saddled with $5 million for 9 yrs. They could sign Hemsky, or they could use that money to go after other UFA's. Maybe go after Parise in the offseason. Maybe Stoll, Hudler, or Grabovski who could be gotten for less than $5 million, for less than 9 yrs, and produce as much.
As far as the 'shining star' comment, I forgot about Patrick Kane. Gagner is #2 in that draft class in games played, goals, assists, and points. Not the shining star but there is more value in a player a player who is 23 yrs old offensive forward who has a 0.6 PPG average than Alex is giving credit to. Hemsky and Gagner is too much for Suter.
(Sorry for the typo when I put Weber's name in for Suter in the last post.)
Ah, i kinda thought maybe you mistakenly put Weber in there, but at the same time, i thought you were saying Edm should get more back and upped it to include Weber? Either way, you've cleared it up.
FTR, i'm not saying Gagner is garbage by any means. I just think that he's had a few years to show us all what he's got and he hasn't done anything to make me notice him really? I wasn't aware he gets "weak" minutes either? I'm guessing this is due to all the talent they've drafted in recent years eating up the top mins? Either way, if he's getting second line mins or worse, he's def not seeing much of the top d pairings either?
My whole point, which is just my opinion really, is that if i were Edm, i'd be happy to trade Gagner and Hemsky for Suter (providing i was confident i could re-sign him!). |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 15:00:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nux, you seemed to have missed by point in the Carter/Hemsky situation. It's not about the return for Carter, it about the money freed up. If they sign Hemsky longer term, great. If not, they sign another players for less than the 9 yrs for the same or less money. The value is not being saddled with $5 million for 9 yrs. They could sign Hemsky, or they could use that money to go after other UFA's. Maybe go after Parise in the offseason. Maybe Stoll, Hudler, or Grabovski who could be gotten for less than $5 million, for less than 9 yrs, and produce as much.
I don't think I'm missing the point, and in fact think that you're missing mine. Carter being shipped out makes perfect sense, for the reasons you state - CBJ has cap space to play with, and is not saddled with a contract that goes another 9 years. There will be a market for Carter, and likely lots of bids for him come trade deadline.
I also understand why EDM wants to get rid of Hemsky, he is the odd man out right now, has injury history, and will in all likelyhood test the market in the summer. A classic "rental" player, there will be suitors for him from teams looking to add scoring depth for the playoffs this year.
What I'm missing is why CBJ would want Hemsky, at this point in time. There seems little likelihood that Hemsky would re-sign with CBJ in the summer (there will be offers from teams with a better chance at success), and its not clear that CBJ would want him on their team as part of whatever restructuring they're going to do.
quote:
As far as the 'shining star' comment, I forgot about Patrick Kane. Gagner is #2 in that draft class in games played, goals, assists, and points. Not the shining star but there is more value in a player a player who is 23 yrs old offensive forward who has a 0.6 PPG average than Alex is giving credit to.
Beans, come on. Stats aside - if you're a GM, and you can take any one of:
- Gagner
- Kane
- Alzner
- Couture
- Pacioretty
- Shattenkirk
- Perron
to add to your team, you're telling me that after Kane, your second choice is Gagner? |
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Guest7116
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Posted - 02/01/2012 : 15:34:24
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| who wants a guy that slept with hartnells wife to get booted off a team. pretty gutty move if you ask me |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 02/01/2012 : 16:02:09
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Put on your Beans Blinders everyone! here are a few more kids from the 07 draft that i would take over ganger
Pk Subban
Jamie Benn
Wayne Simmonds
Brandon Sutter |
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 16:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by ryan93
If I'm the Oilers, no way I give up what is likely to be a lottery pick for Jeff Carter.
I'm in complete agreement. If the oilers were to trade that pick it would be for a good young defence man |
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Guest8875
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Posted - 02/01/2012 : 18:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by ryan93
If I'm the Oilers, no way I give up what is likely to be a lottery pick for Jeff Carter.
Agreed, especially when this year's coming draft is full of defensive talent which is one of the things Edmonton needs right now and in the near future. If Carter is coming to Edmonton its not including a first round pick.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 22:51:24
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How bout this one? I read this somewhere as a possibility.
To LA - Jeff Carter
To CBJ - J. Johnson and J. Bernier
Dunno, but everything i read says there's no way that CBJ gets fair value, or close to what they paid, for Carter so this may seem like a little bit of an overpayment.
If nothing else, it would re-unite Carter and Richards, and what better city for them to wreak havoc on the town's party scene than LA???  |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 04:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
How bout this one? I read this somewhere as a possibility.
To LA - Jeff Carter
To CBJ - J. Johnson and J. Bernier
Dunno, but everything i read says there's no way that CBJ gets fair value, or close to what they paid, for Carter so this may seem like a little bit of an overpayment.
If nothing else, it would re-unite Carter and Richards, and what better city for them to wreak havoc on the town's party scene than LA???
Huge overpayment, not going to happen. In fact, if this offer were ever offered, Carter would be an LA King 5 seconds later.
No, it sounds like Columbus' wet dream . . . my guess is that Bernier alone would be a solid deal for Carter, maybe with a low draft pick.
C'mon guys - don't undervalue how ONEROUS it is to be saddled with a 9 year contract at how much? (can't remember, but it's north of 5.5 mil if I remember correctly) . For a guy who may score 30+ goals, or, a guy who might do something like this year or last year.
It's a huge risk. Yes, in a perfect scenario, Carter adds to your team 35+ goals, north of 60 points and is a big bruising forward who is your top pk guy. Sounds great. But the flip side of that is . . . a guy who barely scores 20 goals 2 out of his first 3 years and then gts hobbled by his foot for the rest of his career, and becomes your high salary malcontent.
As a Leaf fan though, if the price is RIGHT, I might be tempted . . . but the price would have to be VERY right. 9 years is . . . 9 years. Jeesh!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 07:25:41
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There are a couple of things to discuss:
1 - I never said Gagner is the 2nd best player from the 07 draft. Not once did I say that. I said he was #2 in points, assists, games played, and goals. Secondly, there is a lot that is said about a player who has averaged more than 70 games a season since the time he was 18. He has more NHL experience than all of these guy who are apparently better. To answer the question, no I would not take Gagner #2 from the 07 draft class. I would likely take Kane, Couture, Benn, Van Reimsdyk, and Gagner in that order. Maybe Alzner would be ahead of Gagner too. I am not a fan of Subban's attitude and his game is not good enough to back up his mouth. Shattenkirk is a nice player but I don't put him ahead of Gagnber. However, my point was not that Gagner was a God. My point is that Hemsky and Gagner is too much for Suter. Gagner is worth more than that. He is not an elite forward but he is a legit top 6 forward. That kind of player is more valuable than he is being given credit for.
2- Nux, I do hear what you are saying but I still believe you don't see my point. The value is CBJ making a trade for Carter is not the player they get in return, it is the value of the cap space and not having that $5 million hit for the next 9 years. That player could be Semin, Doan, Smyth, Boyes, or Hemsky. The point is the player is irrelevant as long as he is a UFA that can help you team for this season. After that, the value of the trade is not paying $45 million over the next 9 seasons for a guy who is, at best, giving you 30 goals and 60 pts. Carter has had one sweet season and other than that has been solid but not $5 million for 9 years solid. The UFA involved in the trade is almost irrelevant. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 08:27:33
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
C'mon guys - don't undervalue how ONEROUS it is to be saddled with a 9 year contract at how much? (can't remember, but it's north of 5.5 mil if I remember correctly) . For a guy who may score 30+ goals, or, a guy who might do something like this year or last year.
Easy big guy! I was just sharing something that i read. If you're as horrified as you seem with that, i may add that i believe there may have even been a draft pick going to CBJ in the deal i "read". I'm gonna have to see if i can find that blog or article or whatever the heck it was? Funny part is, i think it was a Kings fan/reporter/blogger/etc who suggested the trade?
What i don't understand, is the big deal being made about Carter's contract. It wasn't that long ago that people were claiming he took a discount to stay in Philly and that it was a good signing by Philly to keep their core together longterm, etc, etc. Here's a few comments from the signing back in 2010....
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Not sure on the breakdown, but it averages 5.2M/year over the life of the deal. Its interesting, I was sure that after this summer's fiasco we had seen the end of the long NHL contract.
However, good lockup for PHI, they now have Richards, Carter, and Pronger locked up for the next 7 years, and Richards and Carter for likely their careers, and not at bank-breaking cap hits.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
See, I can get behind Carter for $5 million a lot faster than I can $5 million for Kesler or $4 millon and change for Backes.
At least in Carter I see a 40 goal player that is still young and getting better as well as a great 2 way player. Big, strong, fast. Everything a coach wants in the centre.
With Carter and Richards both locked up for more than a decade it is obvious what the core of the Philly team is. Add in Giroux, Briere, Pronger, Meszaros, Timonen, and Hartnell all signed through 12/13 at the least means Philly's should be a power house for at least the next 3 seasons after this one.
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Great signing by Philly. Sucks that they are going to have such a solid team for a good long while, even with the eventual departure of Pronger.
sigh
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
Jeff Carter is worth $5.2M per year, cap hit. No question about it.
Carter is a sniper in the NHL, who can and will produce between 30-40 goals, per season. Likely, closer to the 40 side when healthy all season.
He can also play the PK, using his size and speed, along with puck moving ability, to keep the puck out of the defensive zone.
He can play two-way hockey, effectively. But he can also net you 40 goals a season. Well worth the $5.2
Irvine/prez.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4873
I think this is a great signing for Philly and believe Carter took a pay cut....58 million poor guy....to stay in Philly. This allows them to keep the team together. Will be interesting to see if this becomes a trend....good organizations being more attractive to players and loading up long term.
These are just a few of the comments, and now many, Slozo included, are claiming this contract is crazy and why would any team want it??? Hindsight boys, it's easy to claim it now that Carter has had a problem with his foot, but where were your injury worrys or slump worries two years ago???
Carter is also a guy many were high on for making team Canada (including you Slozo), and i'm sure many were surprised to see him left off. Now, he's getting the respect of a bag of garbage. Don't get me wrong, yes he's only had the one brilliant year, but he's still put up 30+ goals 3 times (and a 29 goal year) in his short career.
Overall though, it's the sudden change in attitude towards his contract that has me confused.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 08:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
There are a couple of things to discuss:
1 - I never said Gagner is the 2nd best player from the 07 draft. Not once did I say that. I said he was #2 in points, assists, games played, and goals. Secondly, there is a lot that is said about a player who has averaged more than 70 games a season since the time he was 18. He has more NHL experience than all of these guy who are apparently better. To answer the question, no I would not take Gagner #2 from the 07 draft class. I would likely take Kane, Couture, Benn, Van Reimsdyk, and Gagner in that order. Maybe Alzner would be ahead of Gagner too. I am not a fan of Subban's attitude and his game is not good enough to back up his mouth. Shattenkirk is a nice player but I don't put him ahead of Gagnber. However, my point was not that Gagner was a God. My point is that Hemsky and Gagner is too much for Suter. Gagner is worth more than that. He is not an elite forward but he is a legit top 6 forward. That kind of player is more valuable than he is being given credit for.
What you said was "Gagner is still the shining star of that draft class" To me, that says you think he was the best catch in that draft year, but I think we can all agree that is not the case. Given the power of hindsight, I think I take every other player mentioned from that draft class over Gagner, with the exception of Subban - I agree with you on him, he's shaping up to be a problem.
quote:
2- Nux, I do hear what you are saying but I still believe you don't see my point. The value is CBJ making a trade for Carter is not the player they get in return, it is the value of the cap space and not having that $5 million hit for the next 9 years. That player could be Semin, Doan, Smyth, Boyes, or Hemsky. The point is the player is irrelevant as long as he is a UFA that can help you team for this season. After that, the value of the trade is not paying $45 million over the next 9 seasons for a guy who is, at best, giving you 30 goals and 60 pts. Carter has had one sweet season and other than that has been solid but not $5 million for 9 years solid. The UFA involved in the trade is almost irrelevant.
No, I do see your point. They get rid of Carter and free up cap space for next year. However, there is no reason for them to want Hemsky (nor is there any particular reason for Hemsky to want to go there this year). They don't need a "pending UFA that can help the team for the rest of the season", because they are not contenders.
CBJ must already be looking forward to next year at this point - they'll trade for what they want to build around in 12/13. They have needs - another centre (and depending on what they do with Nash a rebuild at forward), a premier defenseman or two if they can get them, a goalie, probably some quality prospects for the bank. They have assets they can move to help them get those things, and Carter is one of them, he'll bring a return that would cover off one or more of those items on the shopping list.
What they won't do - what I can't see them doing anyway - is moving one of those assets for a player "that can help them for the rest of the season", that is a pending UFA and would most likely not stay in Columbus next year. Because CBJ probably doesn't care about this year anymore. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 02/02/2012 08:36:16 |
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Guest5744
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Posted - 02/02/2012 : 09:14:05
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alex your last quote was possibly the best i've ever read from you in the last 2 years or so... way to search the archive and shut beans and slozo up on this one... kudos to you brother.
hindsight is a real gift ... careful what you post on the internet it can be used at anytime. funny how you're opinons changed so fast haha hilarious. so glad you brought that up |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 10:26:48
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Whoa, don't lump me in with the Carter bashers, I have no problem with his contract. He is great bang for buck at 5.2M, and will probably still be good value at the end of it. Hence my belief that there would be a lot of teams anxious to get him out of CBJ.
It just might not be what CBJ wants - if they want to rebuild/retool, and they don't think there is any chemistry with Carter, then suddenly 9 years @ 5.2M is an albatross. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 11:08:19
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I am sure we call all dig back and find this people have posted that are no longer valid or correct. Hindsight is 20/20, foresight is not nearly as sharp. Opinions are allowed to change, are they not??? If you were to ask most anyone about Carter 2-3 years ago they would have said very similar things. If you asked those same people what their opinions are today, do you think none of them changed?? I still think that Carter (healthy) is a strong player and is likely worth $5 million today. However, he is locked in for 9 yrs. That's the deal breaker for me.
Nux, I guess we will agree to disagree. I still don't see how any team is going to openly and happliy take the 9 yr deal that Carter has (including the NTC starting next season) without dropping salary themselves. We will leave it at that. |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 13:12:57
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it would be interesting to see the leafs land a legit number one goalie and not ruin him.... i would be willing to give up kadri, shenn and a draft pick for a legit number 1 goalie.
lets face it reims and the monster have held down the fort but they are both back ups at best. TOR needs to solidify the pipes to be a legit contender to the cup. |
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Guest5744
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Posted - 02/02/2012 : 13:25:42
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i think gustavsson could become a really good netminder
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 13:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5744
i think gustavsson could become a really good netminder
OH DEAR it hurt reading this.... lol jk he shows signs but he is similar to kessel VERY STREAKY! this year has been his best but i personally dont see him as a legit number 1
dont get me wrong i hope he can prove me wrong. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 13:42:53
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My point wasn't to try to belittle anyone, nor argue that they've changed their minds. I too was higher on Carter two years ago than i am now. My issue is with this quote from Slozo:
"C'mon guys - don't undervalue how ONEROUS it is to be saddled with a 9 year contract at how much? (can't remember, but it's north of 5.5 mil if I remember correctly) . For a guy who may score 30+ goals, or, a guy who might do something like this year or last year." Back then, Carter was considered a 3-40 goal scorer, who already had a 46 goal campaign under his belt! He was a borderline pick for Team Canada, obviously falling just "south" of the border. He was considered a great two way player with some physical presence as well as a special teams stud! What more could you want. He was compared to Kesler, with more offense, but slightly less defence. It was argued he took a home town discount to stay in Philly. What more can i say? At 5.2, he was considered a "great signing", even with 10 years attached to his name. He now finds himself in a spot he obviously wasn't happy going to, and has been injured a couple times. Back when this was a "great signing", there was no guarantee he was gonna put up 30-40 per year, even in Philly. So, if he found himself hurt and slumping in Philly, would this still be an "onerus contract" at the dollar and length it is? Cuz back then, it was "great".
Mandree....i don't think the Leafs should completely give up on Reimer just yet, but i agree they could use a more stable goalie to bring him along. He's still only 23 or 24 isn't he? Give him a year or two with a better goalie and then decide if he's the future. Personally, i don't think Gustavsson is the answer though, no matter how well he's playing right now. |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 13:54:56
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Mandree....i don't think the Leafs should completely give up on Reimer just yet, but i agree they could use a more stable goalie to bring him along. He's still only 23 or 24 isn't he? Give him a year or two with a better goalie and then decide if he's the future. Personally, i don't think Gustavsson is the answer though, no matter how well he's playing right now.
[/quote]
i agree with you completely if you notice i didnt mention their names in the trade possabilities... lol heck most goalies dont see legit succeess until later right so the leafs would be crazy to give up on either one right now. just let them hone their skills as a back up for now. i worded what i said wrong ealiear by saying they were back ups at best. i meant at this present time they are sorry for the misunderstanding. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 14:05:51
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My mistake Alex. I offer my apologies. Obviously a 11 yr deal for Carter is awesome if he is healthy and scoring at or close to the 40 goal line. Unfortunately, he not has a stigma of being unhealthy and getting traded just a year into his deal is not a great sign. I did learn that his NTC is only until 2015 and then it's a limited NTC. Unfortuantely, he is also 27 years old and has maybe 5 years of his prime left.
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Guest7116
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Posted - 02/02/2012 : 15:09:32
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wow cant believe benn was actually a 5th rounder! But ya I think Gagner is a pretty good player just not performing to his potential. Better fits "NOW" for Edmonton would be Benn, Couture, Shattenkirk, Subban ... the two Defense mainly because they are hurting on the backend
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Guest7116
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Posted - 02/02/2012 : 20:36:16
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| pretty sure gagner is silencing us critics right now! 5 points already tonight! |
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Guest7116
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Posted - 02/02/2012 : 21:06:49
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| finishes with 8! wow what an unbelievable night... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 21:12:27
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thats pretty amazing, I don't think I've ever seen an 8 point night in the NHL in my life. Perhaps he was reading all the trash talking about him on PUH, thought he'd make a statement.
edit: apparently I have, way back in the 80's - but I don't remember them |
Edited by - nuxfan on 02/02/2012 21:49:34 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 08:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
My point wasn't to try to belittle anyone, nor argue that they've changed their minds. I too was higher on Carter two years ago than i am now. My issue is with this quote from Slozo:
"C'mon guys - don't undervalue how ONEROUS it is to be saddled with a 9 year contract at how much? (can't remember, but it's north of 5.5 mil if I remember correctly) . For a guy who may score 30+ goals, or, a guy who might do something like this year or last year." Back then, Carter was considered a 3-40 goal scorer, who already had a 46 goal campaign under his belt! He was a borderline pick for Team Canada, obviously falling just "south" of the border. He was considered a great two way player with some physical presence as well as a special teams stud! What more could you want. He was compared to Kesler, with more offense, but slightly less defence. It was argued he took a home town discount to stay in Philly. What more can i say? At 5.2, he was considered a "great signing", even with 10 years attached to his name. He now finds himself in a spot he obviously wasn't happy going to, and has been injured a couple times. Back when this was a "great signing", there was no guarantee he was gonna put up 30-40 per year, even in Philly. So, if he found himself hurt and slumping in Philly, would this still be an "onerus contract" at the dollar and length it is? Cuz back then, it was "great".
Mandree....i don't think the Leafs should completely give up on Reimer just yet, but i agree they could use a more stable goalie to bring him along. He's still only 23 or 24 isn't he? Give him a year or two with a better goalie and then decide if he's the future. Personally, i don't think Gustavsson is the answer though, no matter how well he's playing right now.
You are hilarious, Alex. Frankly I think it's very funny that you took the time to check out what everyone's opinion of Carter's contract was two years ago, based on information we had two years ago, and then . . . try to somehow make it seem as if all of us are reneging on some kind of contrived "promise" by comparing it to our opinion now, TWO YEARS LATER, based on what other GMs are saying?!?
Really hilarious.
Why wouldn't my opinion change on Carter's contract?
Two years ago, you and others (me included) would've traded a bunch of great players for Sidney Crosby . . . now, going by his current condition, I personally wouldn't trade the Leafs' top 3 or 4 players - seriously. I am sure many are in the same boat.
Does that make us all idiots? Does that somehow make it seem as if we are disingenuous, always turnign our opinion around at a whim?
No! It means that things CHANGE, dude! Since two years ago:
1) Carter's foot broke TWICE, and he had two surgeries
2) traded to a bottom feeding team, underperformed and sulked, then asked for a trade
3) has generally played extremely average
Why bring up the old "hindsight is 20-20" line? Did any of us call the Philly GM an idiot? I certainly didn't.
I know someone I'd like to give that name to right now though . . . jeesh!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 10:38:43
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I just read Larry Brooks' article for the NY Post suggestion that, according to sources, Ryan Smyth would strongly consider waiving his NTC for a deal to the NY Rangers.
He comes with a big cap hit, north of $6 million (UFA following the season), so the Rangers would have to clear up some space if they were to bring him in for the stretch run. They already began clearing space today though by dealing Erik Christensen to Minnesota, and I have to think they'll do everything they can to try get rid of Wojtek Wolski's $3.8 million cap hit, which also expires after this season. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2012 : 10:58:44
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Slozo....my apologies, i think i may have misunderstood your comments about the contract and it's worth. I was reading it more as you feeling any long term contract was questionable/"onerus". Having said that, there's always a risk of injury and while i don't know all the injury history for Carter, broken feet are flukey at best in the sport of hockey. I'd be more concerned if he'd torn ligaments or dislocated a shoulder or something that could lead to more chronic injury.
Again, i apologize, though my comments, as i stated, were never meant to belittle anyone nor complain about their change of mind regarding Carter's deal as i admitted to do so myself. Of course, being the idiot you all but called me is prob a good enough excuse? |
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Guest5744
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Posted - 02/03/2012 : 11:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Two years ago, you and others (me included) would've traded a bunch of great players for Sidney Crosby . . . now, going by his current condition, I personally wouldn't trade the Leafs' top 3 or 4 players - seriously. I am sure many are in the same boat.
Does that make us all idiots? Does that somehow make it seem as if we are disingenuous, always turnign our opinion around at a whim?
i really doubt many of us are in the same boat... including burke. burke would trade two of those top 4 players for crosby. right now. guaranteed. |
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Trade rumours, thoughts, opinions, etc 
