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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2013 :  14:45:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Duke is confused. Grabo was a good player with decent stats, who was misused in Toronto, who was tradeable, who was not suited in his depth position as 3rd liner in Toronto. Lots of rumours of Grabo going to KHL, with his recent press comments, recent buyout, is not likely to resign in the NHL before the memory fades and his status to play here are answered.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I think the question still stands....if grab is so great and was so valuable to the leafs ( so some posted ) how come he hasn`t signed with any1 yet ?





Ummm, I keep reading all this stuff about people claiming Grabo "was so great", etc and the Leafs will regret losing him (or whatever else has been said), but I just don't recall reading a lot of comments to that effect? Anyone wanna provide some quotes, or those who did say all this "Grabo rules" stuff wanna own up to it???



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2013 :  15:17:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not so sure i agree he was tradeable. It's similar to Ballard in Vancouver. Why would a team trade for him, even if they need salary to reach the "floor", when they prob knew the teams were going to buy them out and they can sign them at that time, for a little less AND not lose and asset? I'm sure the Leafs would have loved to trade Grabo, however, his contract wasn't friendly for what he brings, therefore they couldn't find a "taker" and were left having to use the buyout route.

I just keep reading these comments about how a few people talked about TO making a mistake and how Grabo deserved better (or something along those lines) and now that he's not been signed elsewhere, some Leafers are questioning where these posters are who were saying these things? I'm just curious who said such words as i don't recall reading a whole lot about that stuff??? Anyone?/?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2013 :  17:32:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Why would a team trade for him, even if they need salary to reach the "floor", when they prob knew the teams were going to buy them out and they can sign them at that time, for a little less AND not lose and asset?



A trade guarantees you an asset. A buyout guarantees that you compete with 29 other teams to get that asset.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2013 :  18:35:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

I'm not so sure i agree he was tradeable. It's similar to Ballard in Vancouver. Why would a team trade for him, even if they need salary to reach the "floor", when they prob knew the teams were going to buy them out and they can sign them at that time, for a little less AND not lose and asset? I'm sure the Leafs would have loved to trade Grabo, however, his contract wasn't friendly for what he brings, therefore they couldn't find a "taker" and were left having to use the buyout route.

I just keep reading these comments about how a few people talked about TO making a mistake and how Grabo deserved better (or something along those lines) and now that he's not been signed elsewhere, some Leafers are questioning where these posters are who were saying these things? I'm just curious who said such words as i don't recall reading a whole lot about that stuff??? Anyone?/?


I think the mismanagement was the demotion and letting it known they were going to buy him out rather than playing him at his pay scale to find a buyer. Its not like he wasn't a producer in the role he was signed for. If he was traded while his stock was higher in the top 6, rather than the role he was asked to perform, he was very tradeable.

Its like people who don't like the Horcoff contract. Do they know at that point he was signed to play in a top 6 role, was the best offensive forward at that point for the Oilers. He was injured the following year, when he returned he was religated to 3rd/4th line minutes/linemates, defensive zone faceoffs and ask to perform in a checking role. You can bash a contract all day long, but unless a player is given the opportunity to earn it, you can't blame the player. Gomez would be the opposite of this as he was given the opportunity and failed, IE, why nobody bashed his buyout.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2013 :  09:58:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

I'm not so sure i agree he was tradeable. It's similar to Ballard in Vancouver. Why would a team trade for him, even if they need salary to reach the "floor", when they prob knew the teams were going to buy them out and they can sign them at that time, for a little less AND not lose and asset? I'm sure the Leafs would have loved to trade Grabo, however, his contract wasn't friendly for what he brings, therefore they couldn't find a "taker" and were left having to use the buyout route.

I just keep reading these comments about how a few people talked about TO making a mistake and how Grabo deserved better (or something along those lines) and now that he's not been signed elsewhere, some Leafers are questioning where these posters are who were saying these things? I'm just curious who said such words as i don't recall reading a whole lot about that stuff??? Anyone?/?



FACT: Grabovski was shopped around for a while, but there were no takers. The Leafs would have LOVED to have taken a 3rd or 4th rounder instead of letting him go for free, while using up their compliance buyout. That much is obvious.

So as you stated, for sure there were no takers due to his price.

As to your other comment/question,
I can tell you among Leafers, there were MANY fans who think Grabovski was somehow mismanaged. Lots of fans. And frankly, I have to tell you ,. . .they are just plain wrong on this one.

#1 - You have Bozak, Grabovski, and Kadri as your top 3 centres, above Jay McClement. The choice is to play Grabovski on one of those top 3 lines.

#2 - Grabovski playing with Kessel was tried before with disasterous results. Defensively, a disaster. Stylistically, just didn't work - and that was tried at least briefly by EVERY new Leafs coach - including Carlyle (in pre-season, trust me). SO, end of story - Bozak remains on the top line.

#3 - Kadri, by about a dozen games in or so, had so totally outplayed Grabovski, that he became the de facto 2nd line centre. Whichever player he was with, whatever line, he instantly increased their stats AND made them a better overall line.

#4 - this left Grabovski with a third line role, primarily with Kulemin, who also fell down to the third line for the most part. And, Grabovski STILL continued to get over a minute a game of pp time. Among centres, Grabovski STILL got very close to 2nd line time on the ice time per game, btw (15:34 per game, compared with Bozak's 20:19, and the eye-opening Kadri's 16:03 sheltered minutes).

#5 - Grabovski didn't make his linemates better - not going by stats, and not going by play. He also resisted his new "role", and resisted Calyle's defensive system to some degree. And he complained, quietly, about this.

This is what the reality is.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Edited by - slozo on 07/23/2013 10:02:50
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2013 :  11:26:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will agree with the last assessment of Kadri outplaying him and Bozak being a better fit for Kessel. Was he shopped early before he was a permanent fixture and unhappy on the 3rd line? I don't remember the chatter until the end of the season when Leafs fan were calling for his buyout or complaining because he was misused. What I did see was a player who got dragged thru a lot of fan posts and articles, yet continued to be a solid contributor. I heard comparisons to Gagner in Edmonton early in the season, which I thought were comparible and seeing as Gagners new contract is similar, would assume he was tradeable.

Its just a poor timing factor of Kadri finally playing him out of position and Grabo having just signed a contract for top 6 minutes. When memory fades a little Grabo and his agent lowers his expectation to $3.5-$4.5, will get scooped up by another team.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2013 :  13:57:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo...
I could care less about how Grabo was "mismanaged". I was asking about these posts and / or comments regarding how great Grabo is and why the Leafs would regret letting him go like they did.

Here is what you said:

Posted - 07/19/2013 : 09:14:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of interesting summer moves (getting back to the topic at hand) . . .

. . . how about that rush to snap up the valuable asset known as Mikhail Grabovski? I remember getting shot down as a "turncoat" after giving out what I thought was a thoughtful change of heart on Grabovski, and stating that I was ok on him leaving the Leafs. I was told in no uncertain terms by more than just one poster that he would be grabbed up, and would come back to haunt the Leafs.

Why, then, has no one picked him up? Hmm?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug


Here's a quote from Duke:

I think the question still stands....if grab is so great and was so valuable to the leafs ( so some posted ) how come he hasn`t signed with any1 yet ?

This, from Joshua, is about all i could find that is even remotely close to what was suggested being said: "I still think Grabo is gonna do well elsewhere and make the Leafs wish they hadn't bought him out.". This doesn't sound like a guy doing some "Leaf bashing", which is what seems to be implied. Nor is it a guy claiming he'd be instantly grabbed by someone. Any way you read it, it doesn't come off to me as a shot at the Leafs.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2013 :  18:26:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, i dom`t think either myself or Slozo are accusing any1 of leaf - bashing in the case of Grab.....we are just saying that Grab may not be so valuable as some may think, it just happens that Grab. plays for the leafs which is a team that we regularly watch.

If this were Horcoff or Gagner ( only picked these 2 names because they are spoke of here recently ) who were in a similar situation then i wouldn`t have much of a comment......because i simply don`t watch them play much.

Joshua, no i am not confused about Grabo. When did all this mis-management every1 keeps bringing up take place ??......just last season maybe ??.....in a 48 game season schedule ??......Graboski had EVERY OPPORTUNITY in Toronto over the last 4 - 5 seasons to be Toronto`s regular 2nd line center.......although his numbers haven`t been really terrible, he just couldn`t live up to being a consistent 2nd line center........plus Kadri stole that job from him........he had one great year 3 seasons ago ( along with Kulemin and C. Mac ).....all 3 have never been close to that productivity since......

Graboski received a huge contract and couldn`t live up to it, thats all it amounts to......as for being trade-able, no way he was.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2013 :  21:50:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex, i dom`t think either myself or Slozo are accusing any1 of leaf - bashing in the case of Grab.....we are just saying that Grab may not be so valuable as some may think, it just happens that Grab. plays for the leafs which is a team that we regularly watch.



Duke, maybe Leaf bashing isn't the correct term. That's not really my point though. You both, as quoted above in my last post, implied that more than one other poster claimed Grabo was valuable to the leafs and/or would be snatched up by another team immediately?

No biggie, i was just wondering who actually thought that because i completely disagree with it and was surprised to read that more than one person had this opion.....allegedly.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  03:00:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex, i dom`t think either myself or Slozo are accusing any1 of leaf - bashing in the case of Grab.....we are just saying that Grab may not be so valuable as some may think, it just happens that Grab. plays for the leafs which is a team that we regularly watch.



Duke, maybe Leaf bashing isn't the correct term. That's not really my point though. You both, as quoted above in my last post, implied that more than one other poster claimed Grabo was valuable to the leafs and/or would be snatched up by another team immediately?

No biggie, i was just wondering who actually thought that because i completely disagree with it and was surprised to read that more than one person had this opion.....allegedly.



You are correct Alex - I seem to have false memories of people sayng things like this, that Grabo would be snatched up . . . and no one really said it.

It's my error - fair enough.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  08:27:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I said that Grabovksi has value for teams out there. I don't think I said he would be snatched up in a second but he is one of the better players in free agency. I still think he would be of value to a team however if him and his agent think he's more valuable than what he actually is than KHL might be his only option.

Take a look at this blast from the past. This is the thread from when Grabovski got his deal.

http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21656&SearchTerms=grabovski

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 07/24/2013 08:40:02
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:18:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

You are correct Alex - I seem to have false memories of people sayng things like this, that Grabo would be snatched up . . . and no one really said it.

It's my error - fair enough.




Slozo....Perhaps these opinions were read elsewhere or even spoken to you, as i've had that happen to me where i have a conversation in "real life" (lol) with a friend or aquaintance, then see a similar topic on here and assume it was commented here? Anyway, i was more or less just interested in seeing who had said these things and wasn't willing to own up to it now!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:36:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One think that is surprising is that Horcoff was tradable and Grabovksi wasn't. I would think for virtually the same contract value and the same length of time that a team would prefer the offensive upside that Grabovski brings over Horcoff.


On another note, anyone else want to start a rumor about Hemsky going to New Jersey now that Jagr is there?? If I start the rumor it is wishful thinking. If someone else starts it then it will become closer to reality.

Anyone?? Anyone??? Bueller???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:40:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Paul Ranger to the Leafs for $1 million over 1 year.

Great move!! Here is my take on this.

If, (and it's a huge IF) Ranger returns to form it makes Phaneuf very expendable. He would likely be moved at the deadline adn Ranger locked up for a 3-4 yr contract.

If he doesn't return to form the Leafs lose nothing.

Really, really smart hockey move.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  13:17:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Paul Ranger to the Leafs for $1 million over 1 year.

Great move!! Here is my take on this.

If, (and it's a huge IF) Ranger returns to form it makes Phaneuf very expendable. He would likely be moved at the deadline adn Ranger locked up for a 3-4 yr contract.

If he doesn't return to form the Leafs lose nothing.

Really, really smart hockey move.




WTF? What kind of Leaf bashing is that???

In all seriousness, what happened to Ranger? I don't recall hearing his name in the past couple years?

Beans, as far as Grabo vs Horcoff, it's a good point. I was surprised that Horcoff fetched what he did. The thing with Grabo is, maybe he's in or has had negotiations with teams but they're not willing to pay what he and his agent think he's worth? IMO, i'd take Horcoff over Grabo but that's only because i don't love either of them, and think that Horcoff would fit in as a role player / utility guy on my 3rd line, moreso than Grabo as a 2nd liner.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  13:36:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I think the mismanagement happened the following season of his being signed long term for a big contract. Like you said he regularly played between the top 6 for 4 to 5 years, cashed in on his success and was the victim of a surging star, which the Leafs had in house for years with the intention of filling his slot. Again, Grabo was playing close to his signed contract value prior to being demoted from the top 6. Had Kadri been ready for top 6 prior, to his signing he likely wouldn't have been resigned, rather would have had his right traded to another team for assets for them to negotiate a contract, which likely would have been in the neighborhood of what the leafs signed him for. This is just a case of Burke undervalueing Kadri's potential and development. I don't think Burke liked Kadri much.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex, i dom`t think either myself or Slozo are accusing any1 of leaf - bashing in the case of Grab.....we are just saying that Grab may not be so valuable as some may think, it just happens that Grab. plays for the leafs which is a team that we regularly watch.

If this were Horcoff or Gagner ( only picked these 2 names because they are spoke of here recently ) who were in a similar situation then i wouldn`t have much of a comment......because i simply don`t watch them play much.

Joshua, no i am not confused about Grabo. When did all this mis-management every1 keeps bringing up take place ??......just last season maybe ??.....in a 48 game season schedule ??......Graboski had EVERY OPPORTUNITY in Toronto over the last 4 - 5 seasons to be Toronto`s regular 2nd line center.......although his numbers haven`t been really terrible, he just couldn`t live up to being a consistent 2nd line center........plus Kadri stole that job from him........he had one great year 3 seasons ago ( along with Kulemin and C. Mac ).....all 3 have never been close to that productivity since......

Graboski received a huge contract and couldn`t live up to it, thats all it amounts to......as for being trade-able, no way he was.



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  14:02:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Paul Ranger to the Leafs for $1 million over 1 year.

Great move!! Here is my take on this.

If, (and it's a huge IF) Ranger returns to form it makes Phaneuf very expendable. He would likely be moved at the deadline adn Ranger locked up for a 3-4 yr contract.

If he doesn't return to form the Leafs lose nothing.

Really, really smart hockey move.




WTF? What kind of Leaf bashing is that???

In all seriousness, what happened to Ranger? I don't recall hearing his name in the past couple years?

Beans, as far as Grabo vs Horcoff, it's a good point. I was surprised that Horcoff fetched what he did. The thing with Grabo is, maybe he's in or has had negotiations with teams but they're not willing to pay what he and his agent think he's worth? IMO, i'd take Horcoff over Grabo but that's only because i don't love either of them, and think that Horcoff would fit in as a role player / utility guy on my 3rd line, moreso than Grabo as a 2nd liner.



I'd take Horcoff over Grabo too, but only because of his lower signed contract $4 in 2013/14, $3 in 2014/15, which is way lower than the cap hit of $5.5, plus his superior size, grit, versatility thruout the lineup and greater faceoff %.

If I was a team needing a 20-30 goal scorer, 50-60 point producer, a need for 1st-2nd line centre, I might throw a contract at Grabo. Grabo was signed for in the next 3 years 2013-2015 at $6 million, then $5 2016 and $4.5 2017 with a cap hit of $5.5. His contract Burke and him worked out was definitely an overpay, so I can see why he was harder to trade. I didn't see him more than a $4-4.5 over a shorter 3 year term. Begs the question of why Toronto didn't trade Grabo to Edmonton last year for Horcoff? Horcoff would have filled that 3rd line role Toronto needed with all the intangibles I mentioned above and Edmonton was in need of centers for a good portion of last season due to injury.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/24/2013 14:04:16
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  19:05:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

One think that is surprising is that Horcoff was tradable and Grabovksi wasn't. I would think for virtually the same contract value and the same length of time that a team would prefer the offensive upside that Grabovski brings over Horcoff.


On another note, anyone else want to start a rumor about Hemsky going to New Jersey now that Jagr is there?? If I start the rumor it is wishful thinking. If someone else starts it then it will become closer to reality.

Anyone?? Anyone??? Bueller???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





The Bleacher reports that the best move Edmonton can do is to hang on to Hemsky. I looked at Edmontons stats and he was 7th in team points, with Shultz on D in 5th, and of the top 7 he played in the least amount of games. I noticed 9 goals for him vs 4 for Nugent-Hopkins who plays on the top line and was 6th in team scoring last year. Hemsky has 6 seasons in which he was just below a point per game and he is only 29.

Here is my take, RNH and Hemsky are due to be resigned at the end of the year. I believe RNH will command a higher salary and may not have the stats Hemsky traditionally has, which means Hemsky could be the better to fit under the cap next year. RNH is a RFA at the end of next year, if he is still a bust go out and look for a decent replacement via trade. Edmonton will receive a return even for his rights, unlike Hemsky, whom they would lose for nothing. If Hemsky does not demand more than Hopkins, he was a 20-25 goal 50-60* point player who really hasn't played to his potential in a full season for 2 years in Edmonton. Internationally he is a performer when he plays with other talented players. Give him this year with the improvement of centers Edmonton has now and see if he can live up to his potential, then which is more valuable at the end of the year.

I could be wrong but that's my take on Hemsky and Hopkins.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/24/2013 19:12:53
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  20:17:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, you say at the end of next season if RNH is still a bust ??.......when did he become a bust ?

I don`t get a chance to watch the oilers play much ( late games here on the east coast )......but RNH maybe just had a not so great season. I don`t think i would classify such a young kid who is still feeling his way into the rigors of NHL play a bust after just one not so great stat season.

Kadri finally had a great season with the leafs last year after 2 - 3 seasons trying to crack the line-up, he was close to a PPG season last year.....i think conditioning was a major factor in his slow down at seasons end.......just posting this fact in relation to RNH.....it generally takes time with young players unless you are a Crosby.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  21:50:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't believe I'm going to say this but I completely agree with Duke. Firstly, RNH is far from a bust. He has 76 pts in 102 games and is only 20 yrs old. How is that a bust? He had as many points as the Calder winner during his rookie season playing in 20 fewer games. Compare Hopkins rookie season and Hemsky has only 4 of his 10 seasons better production wise and one of those was only by one point.

Now, if you were to say there are injury concerns with Hopkins it would be hard to argue. He had a concussion his first season keeping him out of 20 games and is coming off of shoulder surgery. That said, it was the same surgery and same doctor who did Hall's last seasons and look how that turned out.

Nope, I think you are in a significant minority of one person in the entire world that would say keep a 30 yr old Ales Hemsky over a 20 yr old Ryan Nugent Hopkins. Well you and Belcher who has almost the same track record as Eklund.


Could you post the link to this belcher report? I looked on the website and can't seem to find the story.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 07/24/2013 21:52:16
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  22:53:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry Joshua, but I have to agree that RNH and "bust" should not be in the same sentence! At least not yet, and no time soon either! If he sucks for 2 more seasons, i'd consider it then, but he played this past season with a shoulder injury that required surgery! AND, as Beans mentioned, he's only 20! Way too early to even remotely consider him a bust.

Whether or not "bleacher" states Hemsky should be resigned is another point, but I don't think it should come at the cost of RNH!

If the Oilers figured RNH was even a possible bust at this point, I think they'd be dealing him as we speak!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  08:52:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Sorry Joshua, but I have to agree that RNH and "bust" should not be in the same sentence! At least not yet, and no time soon either! If he sucks for 2 more seasons, i'd consider it then, but he played this past season with a shoulder injury that required surgery! AND, as Beans mentioned, he's only 20! Way too early to even remotely consider him a bust.

Whether or not "bleacher" states Hemsky should be resigned is another point, but I don't think it should come at the cost of RNH!

If the Oilers figured RNH was even a possible bust at this point, I think they'd be dealing him as we speak!




I wouldn't say that RNH is off the table in trade talks but the value is high and would have to include a young centre with size coming the other way. I don't think anyone will argue that the Oilers will have to increase their mass up the middle if they want to legitiamately compete for a Cup. RNH and Gagner are simply not big enough for a 20+ game playoff run. That said, they are highly skilled players and they are not the main concern for the Oilers.

Based on the roster today the Oilers still need:

- To move Hemsky to make room for Perron in the top 6
- 2 roster defensemen with one being a top pairing guy and the other being a depth guy
- another 3rd line energy guy that can be a risk to score


I am doubtful they will find a top pairing d-man but I think if they can they will compete for a middle of the pack playoff spot in the West.

Hall - RNH - Eberle
Perron - Gagner - Yakupov
Jones - Gordon - Clutterbuck type of player
Smyth - Lander - Brown

Legit top pairing guy like Coburn - J. Schultz
N. Schultz - Ferrence
Smid - depth guy like Douglas Murray

Dubnyk
Labarbara

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  09:02:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/07/09/two-weeks-later-the-edmonton-oilers/

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/06/25/edmonton-oilers-nhl-draft-and-free-agency-preview/

I cant find it on the Bleacher report either but I posted a link to 2 National Post articles, which I believe touches on the fact mentioned in the article I read on the Bleacher report. Oiler long on talent are short on experience. Hemsky of the group left is 1 who has gone to the Stanley cup finals and again with the depth on forwards Edmonton has, may finally play to his potential of a ppg player, if still slotted in the top 6.

The RNH part of my post was my opinion, but I have shared my opinion of RNH over the last season or so. He has great potential, yet wasn't playing at the level last year(injured), small, talented and often injured, seemed off his timing last year, but would return a high value if traded early. He will likely have a higher salary demand than Hemsky, which with Hemsky's past performances might make him the better deal, strictly from a cap perspective. Of the drafts picks Edmonton has done his future might be the closest to not living up to his draft ranking, again IMO. I hope he has a bounce back season and I am proven wrong. Does any of that remind you of Hemsky? The fact he is RFA in 2014 means that even by trading his rights Edmonton receives a return whereas MacT hasn't received an offer for Hemsky, which is suitable for what Hemsky offers the Oilers, yet he is still a highly skilled player.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  09:11:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Sorry Joshua, but I have to agree that RNH and "bust" should not be in the same sentence! At least not yet, and no time soon either! If he sucks for 2 more seasons, i'd consider it then, but he played this past season with a shoulder injury that required surgery! AND, as Beans mentioned, he's only 20! Way too early to even remotely consider him a bust.

Whether or not "bleacher" states Hemsky should be resigned is another point, but I don't think it should come at the cost of RNH!

If the Oilers figured RNH was even a possible bust at this point, I think they'd be dealing him as we speak!




I wouldn't say that RNH is off the table in trade talks but the value is high and would have to include a young centre with size coming the other way. I don't think anyone will argue that the Oilers will have to increase their mass up the middle if they want to legitiamately compete for a Cup. RNH and Gagner are simply not big enough for a 20+ game playoff run. That said, they are highly skilled players and they are not the main concern for the Oilers.

Based on the roster today the Oilers still need:

- To move Hemsky to make room for Perron in the top 6
- 2 roster defensemen with one being a top pairing guy and the other being a depth guy
- another 3rd line energy guy that can be a risk to score


I am doubtful they will find a top pairing d-man but I think if they can they will compete for a middle of the pack playoff spot in the West.

Hall - RNH - Eberle
Perron - Gagner - Yakupov
Jones - Gordon - Clutterbuck type of player
Smyth - Lander - Brown

Legit top pairing guy like Coburn - J. Schultz
N. Schultz - Ferrence
Smid - depth guy like Douglas Murray

Dubnyk
Labarbara

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Totally agree with Douglas Murray! Agree the Oilers need Beef up the Middle, which is why I think RNH is expendable. Wonder what it would take to pry out of Ottawa Zibanejad who is a younger and much heavier center highly regarded, with RNH point potential, maybe higher. Just speculating here.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  09:18:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Totally think a line of Zibanejad, Hemsky and Yakopov would rock. Speed, hands, smarts and 2/3 Russia with a Czech connection, which should be an easy sell these days.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  10:41:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With all due respect, I think you are significantly over-valuing Hemsky's work ethic. The guys is a last one one/first one off the ice kind of attitude. He might be the last guy on the team to make a Cup run (other than Ryan Smyth of course) but he has also been the 'superstar' on the team during the most unproductive time of their history. Since the lockout of 04 no team has a worse record than the Oilers. They have been worse than Carolina, Phoenix, Columbus, and even the Islanders.

Hemsky is this generations Alexei Kovalev. So full of talent but so lacking in desire. The guy doesn't care and hasn't cared for a long time. He can leave Edmonton tomorrow and they wouldn't miss him a bit.

I take a concussed RNH over a healthy Hemsky. He has loads of talent and might take off if in a new environment but he is a cancer in Edmonton.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  11:51:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

With all due respect, I think you are significantly over-valuing Hemsky's work ethic. The guys is a last one one/first one off the ice kind of attitude. He might be the last guy on the team to make a Cup run (other than Ryan Smyth of course) but he has also been the 'superstar' on the team during the most unproductive time of their history. Since the lockout of 04 no team has a worse record than the Oilers. They have been worse than Carolina, Phoenix, Columbus, and even the Islanders.

Hemsky is this generations Alexei Kovalev. So full of talent but so lacking in desire. The guy doesn't care and hasn't cared for a long time. He can leave Edmonton tomorrow and they wouldn't miss him a bit.

I take a concussed RNH over a healthy Hemsky. He has loads of talent and might take off if in a new environment but he is a cancer in Edmonton.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Are you aware that RNH is 6-1 and 174 pounds, with a history of concussions and shoulder injuries. He's got Martin Havlat written all over him. I don't care if he is Edmonton's best center in some peoples eyes because Edmontons centers are small and weak except for Gordon, which is not a #1 or 2 center. If RNH goes down to injury again you will see it. Don't you hate it when Edmontons potential is sitting on the IR. Edmonton doesn't need him, they need a bigger guy with talent who can handle a full season as Halls center. Trade him while his value is high, get that centerman or defenseman we agree the Oilers are lacking.

So what you gonna get in return for Hemsky? Whats he worth when they resign him? Hasn't MacT tried since the trade deadline of last year for decent value on return. They obviously don't feel a crate of lays chips is full value for return. He may be lacking motivation when he was playing for 6 years without a decent linemate, but he was better than .8ppg and still has that talent. If you aren't going to get a decent return and his resigning is of decent value, whats the problem with having him. He plays in the PP, PK, is a legit threat on 5 on 5, will sub thruout the top 3 lines for RW or LW and is truly a top 6 player.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  12:47:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First off, I am not a moron. I can read. I know how tall and how much RNH weighs. Secondly, what is your definition of 'history' because one concussion and one shoulder injury likely doesn't constitue 'history'. Third, you might want to take a look at the frailty of Ales Hemsky. The guy's game count per season over the past 5 years is 72, 22, 47, 69, 38. In those same 5 years he cracked 40 pts only twice. What do you consider 'value' for Ales Hemsky. The guy is current getting paid a $5 million/year salary. Do you think he is worth that??

Ultimately, my opinion is that if he can get traded for anything it is of value for the Oilers. If not during the summer than likely at the trade deadline. He will not be resigned as an Oiler nor should he. The Oilers would be smarter to let him go for nothing and spend that $5 million/year on a legit defender. Especially when you consider Hemsky is #7 on the list of top 6 forwards.

I'm not saying trading RNH for a bigger centre of the same age and skill is dumb move. But Hemsky and RNH are independent of each other. Hemsky still doesn't have a spot on the top 6 of the Oilers.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  12:56:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

First off, I am not a moron. I can read. I know how tall and how much RNH weighs. Secondly, what is your definition of 'history' because one concussion and one shoulder injury likely doesn't constitue 'history'. Third, you might want to take a look at the frailty of Ales Hemsky. The guy's game count per season over the past 5 years is 72, 22, 47, 69, 38. In those same 5 years he cracked 40 pts only twice. What do you consider 'value' for Ales Hemsky. The guy is current getting paid a $5 million/year salary. Do you think he is worth that??

Ultimately, my opinion is that if he can get traded for anything it is of value for the Oilers. If not during the summer than likely at the trade deadline. He will not be resigned as an Oiler nor should he. The Oilers would be smarter to let him go for nothing and spend that $5 million/year on a legit defender. Especially when you consider Hemsky is #7 on the list of top 6 forwards.

I'm not saying trading RNH for a bigger centre of the same age and skill is dumb move. But Hemsky and RNH are independent of each other. Hemsky still doesn't have a spot on the top 6 of the Oilers.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Nice so now I am 1 for 3 on points made, with you finally seeing what I meant on RNH. I get that the Oilers have 7 top 6 players and Hemsky could be the man out, due to his injury history. I think MacT had tried his best to get a return for Hemsky and didn't get what he wanted. I still say with Hemsky's versatility he is still of value to the Oilers and there will be, likely as always, will be a man or 2 down, long enough for Hemsky to prove his value.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  13:50:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So Grabo's agent has released a statement indicating there are 3 NHL teams interested in Grabo's services and 1 KHL team has inquired, which he responded by saying his intention was to play in the NHL next year. One of the team reportedly interested is Washington. That's one team who could slot him in the top 6.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  14:43:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really don't get the 1 for 3 point but whatever.

What is your definition of versatility??? Hemsky is an offensive minded winger who plays well on the half boards on the PP. He does not hit, back check, play defense, or is he able to switch positions.

If you are saying he can play on the wing on either of the top 2 lines, sure. I agree. But so can Ryan Jones or Ryan Smyth.

Why do the Oilers need Hemsky again?? To get 40 pts a season for top 6 minutes?? For a guy who is pretty one-dimensionally offensively?? Did I say he might get 40 pts a season??

Logic is calling. Will you accept the charges????

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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OILINONTARIO
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2013 :  15:00:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

In all seriousness, what happened to Ranger? I don't recall hearing his name in the past couple years?






I wondered that too. Read an article in the TO Sun today. He apparently played for the Marlies last year, and put up some decent numbers. His last NHL play was with TB in 2009, but he dropped out due to personal issues. Kinda remember that.



The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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Alex116
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5810 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  15:38:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

In all seriousness, what happened to Ranger? I don't recall hearing his name in the past couple years?






I wondered that too. Read an article in the TO Sun today. He apparently played for the Marlies last year, and put up some decent numbers. His last NHL play was with TB in 2009, but he dropped out due to personal issues. Kinda remember that.



The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.



Yeah, that does ring a bell. Don't think the "personal issues" was ever revealed? I did read that he had a few offers and wanted to stay close to home in TO and that factored into his decision. Good for him, i hope it works out for him, though with some of the young guys in the TO system he's likely in tough for making the big team!
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Alex116
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5810 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  22:31:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Maybe we should stop talking about the insignificant deals and talk about the blockbuster moves happening in Edmonton. This one is really bold!!


Can anyone tell me something about Boyd Gordon???






On behalf of the Canucks, "we" will see the Oilers Boyd Gordon and raise you a Zack Hamill!

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/hockey/canucks-hockey/Chance+Zach+Hamill+bust+bust+label+with/8709109/story.html
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slozo
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Posted - 07/26/2013 :  07:21:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Paul Ranger - From the vagueness of the description, etc . . . almost seemed like a depression thing, or some other totally non-hockey thing with his personal life. Certainly didn't sound like drugs or anything like that either.

He was a decent player though . . . as a defenceman, scoring 10 goals and 21 assists, with only 5 of those points (all assists) coming on the power play . . . AND all of that coming on the Eastern Conference's worst team that year . . . it's pretty impressive. That, however, was 07/08. 42 games in 08/09. then 8 the next year, and he quietly drifted off into seeming retirement, becoming nothing less than a question mark.

He is still a question mark, but one with a good deal of promise. If he can become a more defensive presence, and if he can fit into Carlyle's system, AND the big IF - if he can be a decent NHL player again. It's possible, and certainly worth the risk I think from the Leaf's perspective.

Here's hoping it works out for the guy.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  09:39:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Noticing that the Blues have signed Allen to a 2 year contract and my belief that Allen is ready for NHL backup duty, the Blues again have a logjam in net with Halak and Elliot, 3 decent goalies with 2 of the legit starters. Wondering if either Halak or Elliot gets shopped and who would be the interested parties. Not a bad situation to find your team in, depth in the most important position.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The Duke
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Canada
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Posted - 07/29/2013 :  19:24:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The salary cap may be going down this season but players are pulling in nice contracts.

The Jets have just signed Blake Wheeler and Zack Bog......both have pretty long term contracts and both will receive over 5 million per season each and every year.

Are both these players worth this $$$ ??....i`m not really sure, i`ve seen Wheeler play plenty of times but really can`t say if he is worth over 5 mill per season for long term.

The more i see some of these new contracts that other players are receiving, the more i am thinking that Toronto didn`t over-pay at all for D. Clarkson.......any thoughts any1 ??
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nuxfan
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3598 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2013 :  20:17:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

The salary cap may be going down this season but players are pulling in nice contracts.

The Jets have just signed Blake Wheeler and Zack Bog......both have pretty long term contracts and both will receive over 5 million per season each and every year.

Are both these players worth this $$$ ??....i`m not really sure, i`ve seen Wheeler play plenty of times but really can`t say if he is worth over 5 mill per season for long term.

The more i see some of these new contracts that other players are receiving, the more i am thinking that Toronto didn`t over-pay at all for D. Clarkson.......any thoughts any1 ??



At even money, I would take Wheeler over Clarkson every day of the week.

- legitimate top-6 forward, perhaps even top-3, on virtually any team in the NHL.
- big and strong, but with scoring touch.
- steady progression in every year since he's been a pro - 64 points in his last full season, and 41 in 48 last year. And on a non-playoff team as well.
- only 26 years old, so will still be in prime years when contract expires

Unlike Clarkson, I think Wheeler is actually worth the contract he's getting, looking at comparables in the marketplace.

Bogosian, I'm not sure - 5M+ for a defenseman that has only cracked 30pts once? Jets fans seem to be claiming that he's a solid defensive dman though, so perhaps as an all-around guy he's worth that. I don't see him enough to really comment.

Edited by - nuxfan on 07/29/2013 21:25:12
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Leafs81
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716 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  05:15:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Winnipeg is not exactly the hot spot for UFA's. So to sign your best players you have in your organisation long term is a smart move.

I would also take Blake Wheeler before Clarkson for that money. Great move by the Jets and happy for them.

Bogosian is still really young, still has some potential offensively and he is solid defensively. He's really smart by playing the way his coach wants him to play first, learning to be smart and solid defensively. Once he gets into a comfort zone, he will rack up some more points. But I agree that this contract is mostly based on potential, but also because the Jets wants to keep their players within the organisation.
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Beans15
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Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  07:41:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bogosian at 6'3" and 215 lb is mobile but also plays with angst and physicality. He is a top teir defensive shut down guy. Sprinkle in 30+ pts a year and the fact that he is only 23 yrs old!

That's a good deal.


I won't regurgitate the comments about Wheeler vs Clarkson. It's not even close.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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